VATICAN CITY (PerMariam) — Referencing the “persecution” of the Latin Mass and the “pervasive confusion, division and even error in the Church,” Raymond Cardinal Burke told Per Mariam that the Church needs a “profound reform” in the style of “a conversion to Christ.”
In this second part of Per Mariam’s recent interview with the well-known American prelate, the cardinal commented on the “persecution” which has been ushered in against Catholics devoted to the traditional liturgy, as well as the widespread confusion and error currently endemic in the Catholic Church.
For the first part of the interview with Cardinal Burke, see here —
Since the release of Pope Francis’ Traditionis Custodes in July 2021, the celebration of the traditional liturgy {Latin Mass} has been severely restricted across the Church, even though canonists have raised strong concerns that the document itself might be in violation of the Church’s Canon Law.
“This is a cause of great suffering. It’s not just,” commented Cdl. Burke about the restrictions.
Being a canon lawyer himself, the cardinal referenced how the text’s “problematic” nature in light of both Canon Law and the theology underpinning the Church’s liturgy.
Fresh restrictions had been rumored to emerge from the Pope’s office over the summer, prompting a significant number of collective and individual representations to the Pope made in support of the Mass. The rumored text never emerged, but notwithstanding that, the Vatican’s liturgy office has continued to gradually implement increased regulation of the Latin Mass, with Cardinal Arthur Roche infamously commenting that the old liturgy is incompatible with Vatican II’s “new theology.”
Cdl. Burke rejected such claims made by Cdl. Roche and others: “That’s false. There’s no new theology of the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Priesthood.”
He warned that a “new reality” appeared to be in the making regarding the Church’s timeless teaching and liturgy:
“People have reduced the faith to an ideology to promote certain popular, secular agendas, and at the same time, reduced the Church to an institution to be used to promote various secularizing agenda.”
The liturgy, he commented, is often nowadays “seen as important only in as much as Our Lord is seen to serve this agenda. So we really need a profound reform in the Church, and that reform is a conversion to Christ, who alone is our salvation as He comes to us in His Holy Church.”
The cardinal – a notable champion for the cause of the Latin Mass – urged Catholics not only to pray, but also to “resist this false thinking” which currently exists about the Church and the Mass. Such an ideology, Cdl. Burke said, “leads to apostasy, to abandoning Christ.”
Expanding on the crisis within the Church, Cdl. Burke continued the theme of one of his recent homilies, as he pointed to “a pervasive confusion and even error in the Church and therefore a pervasive division in the Church in our time.”
Commenting on the current actions of the hierarchy, Cdl. Burke stated that “there is urgent need of the exercise of the Petrine Office and the Episcopal Office to serve unity by teaching the truth, by insisting on the sound discipline of the Church.”
However he firmly warned “discouraged” Catholics against leaving the Church, since “that can never be correct for us.”
Re-iterating St. Paul’s declaration and invitation to “fight the good fight,” Cdl. Burke noted that if “somebody who has a high title or a high position of authority within the Church says something which is not in accord with what our Lord is teaching us in the Church, then we simply have to reject it.”
As part of practicing St. Paul’s principle, Cdl. Burke has issued a series of dubia in the past {most recently in 2023}, alongside brother Cardinals, in order to respond to certain more pressing issues in the Church’s moral and doctrinal life.
While earning criticism from certain members of the Roman Curia, the dubia garnered great support amongst lay Catholics concerned about the confusion spreading in the Church’s teaching and practice.
As to the purpose of such dubia, Cdl. Burke stated that they helped tackle the confusion since “they raised questions about teachings and practices which seemed to contradict what the Church has always taught and practiced. And so the dubia are very helpful to the Holy Father and to the Bishops to teach what the people most need in this time.”
The full transcript of this second half of Per Mariam’s interview with Cardinal Burke is found below
Michael Haynes: I mentioned the rumored restrictions on the traditional Mass. Obviously they never materialized, but still we have a large number of Catholics who are devoted to the Old Mass, who are already living under restrictions.
Cardinal Raymond Burke: Yes. It’s very sad. Because of the confusion about Traditionis Custodes – the document itself is problematical from the point of view of canon law and also of the theological reality of the sacred liturgy – and so a number of Bishops believe that they have to restrict greatly the possibilities for the offering of the Holy Mass according to the Usus Antiquior and also the administration of the other sacraments according to the Usus Antiquior.
This is a cause of great suffering. It’s not just. We must pray that Our Lord will intervene to put an end to this persecution of devout Catholics who simply are spiritually nourished by the more ancient form of the Roman Rite.
Haynes: What are your thoughts on what could be behind these restrictions, because I know you mentioned in a homily recently in December, that it always is a tactic of those who wish to erode the faith to try and attack the liturgy, attack our Lord in the Eucharist.
Cdl. Burke: Well, there’s no question. Even public statements made by high officials in the Church – for instance saying that the Usus Antiquior is no longer valid because we have a new theology of the Eucharist and a new theology of the Holy Priesthood; that’s false – show what underlies the restrictions. There’s no new theology of the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Priesthood.
We can deepen what the Church is understanding, what the Church has always taught, but we aren’t creating some new reality. And this is, I think, what’s going on. People have reduced the faith to an ideology to promote certain popular, secular agendas, and at the same time, reduced the Church to an institution to be used to promote various secularizing agenda.
The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ: Our Lord is the founder of the Church. From the very beginning of His public ministry, He established the College of the Apostles and He prepared them to be His pastoral presence, His pastoral charity in the Church in every time and place. So this is what is key.
Faithful Catholics have to resist this false thinking that leads to apostasy, that leads to abandoning Christ. It shouldn’t surprise us that in many of the documents that come out from the so-called Synodal Way the figure of Our Lord Jesus Christ – who alone is our salvation – is relativized.
Somehow it [the liturgy] is seen as important only in as much as Our Lord is seen to serve this agenda. So we really need a profound reform in the Church, and that reform is a conversion to Christ, who alone is our salvation as He comes to us in this Holy Church.
Haynes: I wanted to ask you about another homily you gave, also in December. It related very much to that crisis in the Church that you’ve mentioned. For a growing number of years now, Catholics have become quite accustomed to hearing regular statements, or seeing actions, either from the Holy Father or from high-ranking officials, which often seem to contradict certain points of the faith or at the very least cause much confusion.
We’ve had a number of instances just in the last 12 to 14 months. In your homily, you said something very beautiful, really drawing from the teaching of the Church, where you said that “no matter what we are asked to suffer, we must remain with Christ, even if those in the highest positions of authority in the Church should abandon Him and should commit the grievous crime of apostasy.”
Could you expand on what you meant by that? What Catholics should do?
Cdl. Burke: Well, there’s no question that objectively there is a pervasive confusion and even error in the Church and therefore a pervasive division in the Church in our time. Many devout Catholics have become very discouraged, because at the highest level in the Church there is urgent need of the exercise of the Petrine Office and the Episcopal Office to serve unity by teaching the truth, by insisting on the sound discipline of the Church.
And so, what I encounter frequently is an exasperation on the part of the faithful who, in their exasperation, wrongly conclude that the answer to the situation is to leave the Church and to join some schismatic group or join another denomination. That can never be correct for us.
Schism is an intrinsic evil because Christ, by His own words just by His own promises, is alive for us in the Church, and we are in communion with Him through the Church as His Mystical Body.
We may suffer, and this is not the first time in the history of the Church that the faithful have suffered because they remain true to Christ. Think of St. Athanasius, for example, how terribly he was treated – sent into exile – simply for defending the fundamental truth of the two natures in the one person, one Divine Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
But today, in the face of that suffering, some people want to run away, but we can’t. We have to stay in the Church.
We have to, as St. Paul says so well in his letter to St. Timothy, we have to fight the good fight. We have to keep the faith. St. Paul says it, too, at the beginning of the letter to the Galatians. He said that even if an angel from Heaven would arrive telling you something different from what you have been taught, let that angel be accursed. In other words, if somebody who has a high title or a high position of authority within the Church says something which is not in accord with what our Lord is teaching us in the Church, then we simply have to reject it.
Haynes: In fact, that was, I think, very possibly behind the comment of Cardinal Zen from just a few days ago. He had a very brief comment which seemed to be directed at the Synod, and he said, we can’t pray to the Holy Spirit to ask Him to overturn the teaching He’s already given us.
Cdl. Burke: Yes, exactly. This idea that we pray to the Holy Spirit to advance these ideas of ours, to advance our image of the Church instead of Christ’s image of the Church, is to suggest that the Holy Spirit for 2,000 years has been wrong and now has decided to go in a different direction: and that that simply can’t be.
I remember some years ago when I was a bishop in the United States there was a religious community that had diminished greatly. They were selling their beautiful property at their mother house. And the local secular paper interviewed the superior general, and said to her, “aren’t you sad about the fact that you’re diminishing and you’re having to sell these beautiful facilities?” And the response was “No. In former times, the only way for upward mobility for women in the Church was to be a religious sister. And now women can have power in the Church in other ways, and so we’re not needed anymore.”
Well, my response to that was that the Holy Spirit for 2,000 years was inspiring women to give their lives to Christ as his brides for teaching, for the care of the sick, for many of our Lord’s works. And now suddenly the Holy Spirit changes, there is no longer a consecrated life? That’s just one example, but you can see it in many examples as you have also indicated.
Haynes: You mentioned the need for a reform in the Church in terms of a conversion.
Cdl. Burke: Oh, absolutely.
Haynes: How would that look, do you think, in practice? I know you and some of your fellow cardinals have issued Dubias or statements [in the past]. Would that be something for such a reform, do you think?
Cdl. Burke: Yes, absolutely. The reform will come about by teaching the truth of the faith, and by helping everyone in the Church to deepen their knowledge of the truths of the faith, and so to live. The Dubia helped because they raised questions about teachings and practices which seemed to contradict what the Church has always taught and practiced. And so the Dubia are very helpful to the Holy Father and to the Bishops to teach what the people most need in this time.
Fundamental to the true reform of the Church will be a return to sound catechesis and also the discipline of persons who – in the name of the Church – are teaching things that are simply wrong and are scandalizing the faithful, leading them astray.
God bless Cdl Burke.
I have total confidence in him.
Thank you Michael for this timely uplifting interview. Even if the Barque is reduced to a shattered mast seeking Sonlight as it rides the crests and troughs of the maelstrom I'll be obedient and "Ride it out with love, joy and peace."
This was the message I received in Eucharistic Adoration on 3/27/19. He added, "I got the com."
[He is in charge.]