EXCLUSIVE: Abp Cordileone – Beauty of Latin Mass draws young people
“What truly evangelizes is the beauty of the Church’s heritage. So we need to live that in a way that is communicable.”
(PerMariam) — In offering the traditional Mass there is “a sense of breathing with the Church throughout the centuries,” Archbishop Cordileone told Per Mariam in a recent exclusive interview.
In recent weeks, San Francisco’s Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone has had cause once more to delve into the debate surrounding the liturgy, specifically the traditional Mass.
The topic has been increasingly under scrutiny of late as new restrictions against the traditional Mass have been levied by certain prelates in the U.S., while devotees of the old rite hope for Pope Leo XIV to overturn his predecessor’s widespread restrictions.
Supporting comments made by Cardinal William Goh in defense of the traditional Mass, Abp. Cordileone wrote: “Let me second the idea that lifting restrictions on the use of the 1962 Missal would be grand, healing, and unifying.” He then expanded in a seperate post, commenting: “The experience in the U.S. is that when the TLM is offered in parishes, people mostly attend their preferred form but occasionally attend either. This is good for unity. Unity. And the TLM.”
The Archbishop is no stranger to the traditional Mass, having celebrated it himself publicly, and is currently championing a cause to promote increased devotion and reverence in the liturgy. Such a stance has led him to become a central figure in endeavors of this kind, including an annual sacred liturgy conference, attended this year by Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith and Cardinal Robert Sarah.
For Abp. Cordileone, the traditional Mass is a way to breathe “with 2000 years of history of the Church in that Mass because of how it’s organically developed over so many centuries.” He has decried how restrictions on the traditional liturgy have re-awakened the “liturgy wars” in recent years.
Speaking in a recent video interview with this correspondent for Per Mariam, the archbishop opined on how to handle the “liturgy wars” currently raging, how best to increase reverence in the liturgy more widely, and spoke about his personal experience offering the old Mass.
The full interview transcript follows, and the video is found directly below.
Michael Haynes: Your Excellency Archbishop Cordileone, thank you very much indeed for giving me your time. I wanted to go back to some comments that were made online in recent weeks. You wrote online in support of some remarks that Cardinal Goh had made regarding the traditional mass and the permissions for the traditional Mass. You said that, “let me second the idea that lifting restrictions on the use of the 1962 Missal would be grand, healing, and unifying.”
I wondered if you would just first expand on that and how you how you see that would be healing and unifying?
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: I believe there are many Catholics who have an appreciation of the traditional form of the Mass – who attend both forms but are enriched by the traditional form – who are not dismissive of the Second Vatican Council, but appreciate this manifestation of the Church’s tradition.
Others are very devoted to the traditional Mass and would attend all the time, or mostly all of the time.
They also, the ones that I know at any rate, are trying to live good Catholic lives, living by all of the Church’s teachings.
I believe we need to keep them in the family, not keep them at an arms distance or make them feel like they’re second-class citizens. I think we need to respect their sensitivities, the devotion they have in their hearts, and keep them within the family.
There is a faction that I hear about that are very militant and perhaps do reject some teachings of the Second Vatican Council. I think that’s a much more complicated question than people realize.
I don’t think people really understand what they mean when they say Vatican II or the Second Vatican Council. The way I see it, there are three levels.
There’s what the Second Vatican Council actually said in those 16 documents. It’s an ecumenical council. Granted, the Council stated at the outset that its purpose was not to define anything dogmatically. Nonetheless, this is part of the Church’s Ordinary Magisterium and it’s teaching that must be accepted.
Then there are the documents on the implementation of the Council, and those in themselves are different levels of authority from the Pope, from the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia, from bishops' conferences and from bishops in their local churches.
Then the third level is what actually happened on the ground, in the parish, in the pews. There are a lot of complexities here. I think a lot of people who react against the Second Vatican Council are reacting mainly against what happened at that third level. Maybe at that second level, that is open to criticism too, constructive criticism, maybe different prudential decisions could have been made. So we can discuss that.
Up for discussion is not the documents themselves and the teaching within those documents. And it’s certainly proper to read those documents in the light of the constant continuity of the Church’s tradition before. I think very few Catholics would fall into the category of rejecting the Second Vatican Council at that first level. I think then, trying to keep us all in the family in respecting the Church’s heritage, including the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, it would be helpful to have a more generous availability of the traditional Mass.
Michael Haynes: Certainly the restrictions on the traditional Mass, or the traditional Mass question, have been particularly prominent in these last weeks and months. I think your intervention and Cardinal Goh’s intervention came at a time when there’d been some quite high profile announcement of restrictions in various US dioceses. It seems, with regards to this question, there’s a particular attention paid to restricting the traditional Mass, which seems a peculiar attention when you look at other issues that could be addressed and, dare I say, need to be addressed.
Do you have any sense of what might be driving this, what might be behind the very zealous push to implement restrictions?
Abp. Cordileone: That is a very good question. I can only speak from my personal experience because I’m old enough to remember when everything was changing. I made my first Communion in 1964. So I’m barely old enough to remember what the Mass was like before. I have very vivid memories of when everything was changing after Vatican II. And there was a certain sort of, if I may use the word, a mania or a frenzy. There was a sort of angst that the Church was behind the times and we needed to catch up with the times, that the Church was becoming irrelevant. Now, we do always, of course, have to figure out how do we more effectively communicate the truths of the Gospel in any particular culture, given that that time and that place – that is true.
But what truly evangelizes is the beauty of the Church’s heritage. So we need to live that in a way that is communicable.
I think there was this sense of “we needed to do things in a new way and the old way was going to, we would lose people.” I think this idea is still around among some people. And I think they would see younger people attached to the traditional form of the Mass as living in a different reality from where the world is now, and very different from where the vast majority of young people are. I think there’s some validity to that, but there’s also validity to the beauty of the Church’s tradition. And again, to live this in a way that can attract people.
To me, the telltale sign is with young people, they’re attracted to this tradition, with either form, but especially the younger they are, seems to be the more they’re drawn to the traditional form of the Mass. To me, the telltale sign is when they discover this and then involve themselves with it and learn about it, they come along with the truth side too.
They experience the beauty, then the truth comes along. So they embrace the fullness of the Catholic faith. That is, it’s not something just of aesthetics – it’s a beautiful ritual, it’s beautiful music – but truth is very much a part of it.
This is a telltale sign that it [the Latin Mass] is effective in evangelizing because these young people, they’re living the fullness of the Catholic life – a lot of those moral teachings that were rejected after Vatican II.
We didn’t see much of a so-called crackdown on those who dissented [from these moral teachings], even bishops who dissented from some of those teachings. And I think that has been to the detriment of the Church.
So I would say this is one thing, it’s not the only thing that’s working for evangelization, but it’s one thing that seems to be effective, especially among young people. So let’s use that to the Church's advantage for the good of the Gospel and the salvation of souls.
M Haynes: That ties into something which I think you mentioned actually a couple of years back. I apologize for going back a couple of years: you were speaking to Raymond Arroyo about how the traditional movement could be a key aid for aiding the urgency of renewal in the Church. I think you actually mentioned that in your own reply to the famous survey that the Vatican sent out prior to Traditionis Custodes. I think you suggested that the hierarchy see the fruits of the traditional movement as part and parcel of what was needed to foster this renewal, especially at a time when we're seeing a great loss of Faith in many corners of the globe, and a great loss of practice of the Faith amongst those who would actually profess to be Catholic but then actually in reality end up rejecting a lot of the Church’s teaching.
Would you still say that, a few years on, that that’s been your same experience today?
Abp. Cordileone: I was very deliberate in using the word movement in my comment in that survey because the traditional Mass, it’s not technically an ecclesial movement like we see other movements, right? There have been many movements shortly before and then certainly after the Second Vatican Council with Cursillo, and Marriage Encounter, Neo-Catechumenal Way, the Christian Family Movement. These are all movements in the Church.
The traditional Mass is not a movement in that sense, but it has all the markings of a movement. Now, these movements have great potential for renewing the life of the Church, again, if they’re kept within the family – which means the Church authority has to be engaged.
I see the life of the Church progressing in kind of a bi-directional way. There has to be grassroots and the exercise of authority. It can’t be all one or all the other. If it’s all one, if it’s imposed from the top, it’s not going to work because it’s not an organic development. If it’s all grassroots without any intervention of authority, then things will just kind of spin out of control and become chaotic.
So initiatives can come from either way. We can see grassroots movements, but the authority has to intervene to regulate it, maybe correct excesses, make sure things are kept within the communion of the church.
The authority can have proposed an idea, but rather than initially impose it on everyone, sort of test it with the grassroots. So there has to be this sense of synergy where they’re both working together. So movements, if they’re ignored, all the more so if they’re punished, they’re going to move more to the margins and then begin to develop a sort of parallel church. And it fosters the thinking that “the real Catholics are with us, those other ones aren’t really Catholics.” So that’s the danger.
But if the Church authority, is involved, is pastorally present, keeping them part of the family, then it can add tremendous potential for renewing the Church. This is what I see also applies to the traditional Mass.
When people are punished and pushed away because they disagree with the opinion of whosoever in authority, that causes division, right? And it breaks down the body of Christ.
So we have to, as a Church authorities, bishops, we have to correct excesses. We have to correct errors. We have to give good guidance to people. But when we do that, yes, it has tremendous potential for renewal of the Church.
Also, the other comment I’ve made when I reflect on this, for decades, we’ve heard pleas from the popes and other high-level Vatican officials for correction of liturgical abuses, right? Certainly going back to John Paul II and Benedict most especially, Pope Francis as well has decried liturgical abuses. Cardinal Roche himself, who’s the mastermind behind Traditionis Custodes, criticizes liturgical abuses. He wants the Mass celebrated reverently and well and beautifully.
So all of these voices coming from our Vatican leaders, they seem to have little effect.
My thought is, do we need to do something different rather than just talk about it?
I think more experience of the traditional Mass might be that corrective that we need if it’s more a regular part of Catholic life, people will see it because that Mass is so tightly regulated. It can be done sloppily, but most of it would not be seen by people in the pews, but it’s very tightly regulated, so that's limited.
There's an inherent sense of reverence and transcendence to it [the traditional Mass].
So I think if people experienced that more we would achieve this, what Pope Benedict called the mutual enrichment of the two forms. This more reverent celebration of the Mass in its current form would begin to take hold, and people would be desiring it.
And I would hope that at celebrations of the traditional Mass, we would have more more people participating in their responses.
This was all the active participation, going back to Pope St. Pius X, Saint Pius X with Tra Le Sollecitudini in 1903 calling for active participation. I would like to see more of that also at the traditional Mass, people especially singing the ordinary parts of the Mass in Latin.
So I think with more familiarity, when it’s more a regular part of Catholic life, we would have a great advantage in the celebration of both forms of the Mass.
M Haynes: And by doing so, it would also move away from the current state which I think you've commented on quite a lot, that we seem to have reawakened the liturgy war particularly when you have one form which seems to be favored and more free and the other which is not given that same freedom and slightly relegated.
Do you perceive any danger for the Church if these restrictions were to continue in this current form, particularly in the quite prohibitive style that we’ve seen? Especially in recent months when there’ve been thriving communities who’ve ended up having their traditional Mass restricted or moved or curtailed from many different churches just to one church.
Is there a danger, do you think, if that’s to continue longer term?
Abp. Cordileone: The immediate danger would be people going to break off communities or just feeling dejected and stop going to Church altogether. That would be an immediate danger, but I think it’s not going to last because I’m the last of the generation that has this before and after Vatican II mentality.
It was just inculcated in us by the culture and the Church at the time. The generations after mine don’t have that. I don’t see anyone who’s young or even middle-aged with this animus against the traditional Mass. So I think eventually we’re going to return to a time [where we] accept that people like that form of the Mass – let them go to that form of the mass.
I think again, the danger is like being overly restrictive or having no involvement at all. We need the right balance.
M Haynes: And something you mentioned about how there’s a certain beauty and order which draws in young people. That’s something which I know when I’ve spoken to Cardinal Burke about this in interviews, he’s also highlighted when he’s been going around the world and encountering different communities of different ages, he’s always found that as quite a constant aspect.
Just to finish I wanted to draw from something that Bishop Reed from Boston wrote recently, because he had quite a moving remark. He mentioned that after he celebrated his first traditional Mass, he removed his vestments and went to the back of the pews and just knelt down and wept.
Have you had any similar moving experiences from offering the traditional Mass, or what’s been the most striking part for you personally when you’ve offered it?
Abp. Cordileone: I feel I’m breathing with 2000 years of history of the Church in that Mass because of how it’s organically developed over so many centuries. I feel a very strong sense of connection with my predecessors in the Faith.
I experienced it more powerfully when I celebrate in a solemn way with the vesting right and the unvesting because the pontiff is being vested to go off and offer sacrifice. Once, the scripture verse came to me, Christ’s prophecy of Peter’s martyrdom, that when you were young you dressed yourself and where you went, when you’re older, they will dress you and take you where you do not want to go. So I think the deep meaning of the Mass does come through more powerfully.
It reminds me of an example a priest friend of mine gave. I’m originally from San Diego. He is a priest of San Diego. He would spend a lot of time in Tijuana, and he also is a devotee of the traditional Mass. So he gave this comparison.
He said he goes to these new neighborhoods in Tijuana, and they’re all very regulated with straight lines, houses well constructed and it’s all kind of laid out on the grid and all the same, very rational.
He goes into older neighborhoods and he sees how things have changed over time: streets turn and then they go into a dead end, he sees a garage that’s now a little apartment, you see where the garage door was now there’s an apartment door there and all these kind of changes over time. So he compared the two forms of the mass to this.
We have things that might seem peculiarities to us in the traditional Mass, but there are reasons why these were adapted over time. And that’s why I say there’s a sense of breathing with the Church throughout the centuries and celebrating that Mass.
M Haynes: That’s a beautiful way of looking at it. As I think you’ve mentioned in other areas or other articles, there’s [a need of] an organic development, not a development in terms of a revolution and a break, but a natural, very truly liturgical development.
Abp. Cordileone: Again, it has to be the bidirectional sense, right? It can’t be created from above and imposed. There has to be some direction from above, sometimes an initiative coming from above, but it has to come out of also the lived experience of the people. We need both for any legitimate life-giving development in the Church.
M Haynes: Your Excellency, I won’t take any more of time, but thank you very much indeed for your thoughts and also for your witness very much in the public sphere. It’s certainly very appreciated by many Catholics, I think possibly more internationally than perhaps you may realize as well.
Abp. Cordileone: Well, I’m hoping with my Benedict XVI Institute, we’re promoting the Reverend Liturgy Project precisely to enhance our celebration of the Mass and according to the current form.
To give priests and parishes, and other worshiping communities, resources for enhancing the beauty and reverence at their mass. So people can follow that at our benedictinstitute.org website.
Thank you Michael for this work helping us understand what's developing.
It's becoming clearer that regarding Prevost that "if we discern a certain contradiction in (his) words and deeds, as well as those of the dicasteries, well, we must choose what was always taught and we turn a deaf ear to (the) novelties destroying the Church.”
The call for unity is a good aim but not at the cost of sacred tradition.